Are you sure about this? I thought this plan had been changed. I the new bridge north bound exit is to the east not west.

That would be crazy to route all that traffic from the 52 bridge up Prince St which ends at a "T" at Broadway. There's two sets of traffic lights there plus the lightrail tracks and traffic will totally back up. I avoid going that way even now as you sit forever waiting for the lights to change. Plus there's lots of pedestrian and bicycle activity in that area. Also, our drop off loading zone is right on Prince St in front of our building. It all makes for a congested and dangerous situation.

I agree that this is a crazy idea! Where did you learn about it?

The MN-Dot website has nothing about this. Check out the video that shows where the traffic will be routed. The exit to 7th street from NB 52 goes under 94. http://www.dot.state.mn.us/lafayettebridge/

From Nigel Parry on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151463567152864&set=gm.10152913180440403&type=1

Pat Lindgren, from Councilman Dave Thune's office, commented on Nigel's post, asking people to make lots of complaints on this seeclickfix.com site. I've left a message with Ms. Lindgren this morning to confirm all this, but it looks right.

Sosan, that is a beautiful film! But my understanding is that this decision was made recently. I'll post the result of my phone contact with Pat Lindgren hopefully after she returns my call later today.

My info came from Nigel Parry's Facebook post (link above), which said:

"It's a done deal at this point according to Pat Lindgren, Councilman Dave Thune's assistant. No one turned up at the planning meeting apparently, no doubt because there was nothing posted around town."

Pat Lindgren, from Councilman Dave Thune's office, commented on that post:

"Please register a complaint on http://seeclickfix.com/st_paul... In fact, register a lot of complaints"

I was under the impression from the last council meeting I attended that this was to be a green space connecting to the vento trail. If this plan is accurate it is a terrible idea the influx in traffic would destroy the neighborhood let alone the loss of green space.

I live at the Tilsner and am very aware of the area in question. I can not fathom that this is an actual answer to the traffic problem. It would cause many more problems than at first glance it would fix. It totally ignores the rights of those living, walking, picnicking, recreating and parking in their neighborhood. If we missed a meeting about this it was not because we do not care about this issue, but because it was not appropriately brought to our attention. This is our home, our neighborhood, and we have the right to have a say in how major decisions are made.

There is an incredible amount of pedestrian traffic here. This is a dangerous, senseless idea. The LRT promised a green space on top of the maintenance building and that did not happen. PLEASE do not take away the green spaces! the residents of Lower Town were told LRT would work WITH us...that needs to happen.

At the end of the film it mentions working with the city on "future connections" and doesn't specify. What's that about?
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/lafayettebridge/
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The "Prince Overview" Project designation (the top image) is 13-P-1385, drawer 13, drawing number 1563

The problems with this plan are sending traffic to the T at Broadway which will no doubt often be backed up and sending fumes onto the patio of the Black Dog; enlarging the road to two lanes then shrinking it when it reaches the Northern (bottleneck anyone?), the loss of even a part of the tiny park (the only other in Lowertown apart from Mears) and the idea of sending traffic down to one of the busiest walking areas.

If this plan is real it is a terrible one. Traffic will end up at a corner that is confusing, has high pedestrian and bike traffic, and is a residential neighborhood. A right turn crosses the LRT track in front of the maintenance building that never should have been placed in Lowertown. If the purpose is to bring traffic to parking under the 52 bridge there is already and entrance off Kellogg and the street does not have to go through to Broadway. Broadway is also the route for the Metro Transit buses going to the depot. As more routes are added to the depot the street is going to be even more congested. Lowertown does not need more traffic with Kellogg and the LRT line on 4th. Bringing traffic to this intersection is going to be a big problem for Lowertown. Do not turn Lowertown into the mess Uptown has become in Minneapolis. There needs to be a comprehensive plan for Lowertown before any more mistakes are made and the residents need to be included in these decisions. It is time for a Lowertown rally to stop all this craziness.

This does appear to be an absurd plan. With farmer's market pedestrian traffic and the end of the light rail line only a few feet away there are bound to be big problems. For walkers, bikers and drivers - not to mention local businesses on Prince. Why has this been determined to be a good option? What are the others that were discussed? Kellogg? Shepard/Warner?

I'm 100 percent against this plan. Prince street is not a thoroughfare.

Yes, anyone who lives or works in this area will agree this is a horrible plan! It makes no sense to route a ton of through-traffic down this small, pedestrian-populated street, which comes to a T and has lrt tracks already confounding the intersection. This is a residential block! The fumes from the backed-up traffic will be horrendous for lowertown residents in the Northern Warehouse, who have no a/c and so have open windows in the summer. Not to mention the people trying to enjoy the tiny slice of garden we have left, or the one strip of patio seating. If this plan goes through, this historic, residential, quaint, valued artists neighborhood will be dangerous for its residents and visitors and congested by unnecessary traffic. Don't take away our neighborhood!

We've been screwed on this from the day that the OMF got railroaded into that location, and further screwed when the Met Council was allowed to put their mechanicals outside the building. With that said, I'm disappointed that there hasn't been a response to this thread yet from Public Works or the City Council, because there are answers to some of these questions, and they need to step up on the rest. Here are some specific things that I heard back in April at one of the public meetings (there were at least two, and one of them was at the Black Dog). Hopefully these details are still accurate.

1) The intent was not to have southbound traffic barreling off of Hwy 52 and through Prince onto Broadway. There was supposed be a T intersection back by the Downtowner, and then at least one more intersection at Lafayette Road (currently the short street under Hwy 52). The plan was to shape and sign the road in a way that will direct traffic down Lafayette Road to Kellogg, for parking at the depot and for access to the rest of downtown. Prince was supposed to be a narrow neighborhood street with traffic calming measures, and clearly designed to be a "Complete Street" focused on the safety of people walking and biking.

2) The lane shift that Prince will have to make (due to the idiotic decisions about the OMF location and further compounded idiotic decisions to put their mechanicals outside the building) will end up pushing the southern sidewalk down into the first few feet (10?) of the garden. This sucks, but we won't be losing the entire garden, and maybe we can push the city to design the interface between the sidewalk and the remaining portion of the garden as something that includes a nice retaining wall, seating, lighting, planters, noise barriers, etc. The real nightmare is that the city doesn't actually own the land where the garden is. Gillette still owns it, and for all we know they might just show up someday and kick us off.

3) The plan is to include nice sidewalks, trees and lighting along the length of Prince to make it friendly (and safer) for pedestrians. Right now it's like walking through a war zone.

4) The plan is to include a protected bike path along the OMF side of Prince to safely bring bike commuters and recreational cyclists all the way from the Gateway Trail and Bruce Vento to Broadway. Right now bikes are forced onto Kellogg or 7th, neither of which has any kind of bike infrastructure, and both of which have multiple lanes of fast-moving traffic.

That's all I remember at the moment. I agree that it would be insane if Public Works was planning on routing traffic from Hwy 52 into downtown via Prince Street, but the traffic engineer that presented at the public meeting (Jesse Farrell from Public Works) stressed repeatedly that Prince is supposed to be a neighborhood street, focused on being an asset for people walking and biking. The segment between Broadway and Lafayette will potentially be something that can continue to be a neighborhood event place, where we could regularly get permits to shut it down and have weeknight markets or mini art crawls or whatever we want. Car traffic was supposed to be primarily routed toward Kellogg via Lafayette Road. The Union Depot will be building out the eastern parking lots to add more parking, and the Kellogg stoplight just east of Broadway will be moved down to Lafayette Road to make it easier for traffic to get onto and cross Kellogg. So there will be numerous incentives, in addition to the streetscape design proposed by Public Works, to steer cars toward Kellogg instead of Broadway.

If people want more details, I'd suggest voting this issue up, sending emails to the mayor and Dave Thune, and asking Public Works for detailed schematics of exactly how it will all be laid out. Jesse Farrell (the traffic engineer) came down to the Black Dog to talk to people at least once, and I'm sure he'd be willing to come down again and answer questions.

Jim Ives: "The real nightmare is that the city doesn't actually own the land where the garden is. Gillette still owns it, and for all we know they might just show up someday and kick us off."

Jim, from what Matthew Rucker says, the land is actually in an abandoned status now, it's not Gillette's or the City's. This opens up the possibility of ArtSpace buying it.

I would like to suggest that the City or other owners give back the corner of the TransPark lot that would "complete" the Gateway Park into a larger square. This is one of two parks in Lowertown, how about making it a nicer one?

Nigel, that sounds like a great opportunity. Do you know where Matthew got his information so we can confirm? I thought I'd heard back in April that the city was still in the middle of a condemnation fight just to get the right-of-way piece for Prince, and that was a significant part of the cost for the project. If that's not true, then yeah, let's run with it. Is someone already talking with ArtSpace?

Railroading bad projects is not the way to do things. StPaul gov your messing with our neighborhood with out concern "I am sure Colemen is well intentioned but what bothers me is that when he talks about Lower town he rarely if not never mentions the Arts. I wish he would support us as much as the Saints, Union Depot, Light Rail, Farmers Market and Prince St. ..." Prince St. should be a pedestrian street with Brick/ Kabul stone on the weekends with a market that Artists, Crafters, Various Venders, Street Cafe with some shade. I also would like to open the Street Walkway with fire pits with seating to create a place for night time activities, neighborhood gatherings, I meet up destination, with roasted marshmallows and flame cooked weenies.... Lower town is a Neighborhood 1st before the stadium before the light rail and before any more of bad decisions by people that don't know Lowertown. I believe this pedestrian street would make that statement to guests visiting the Saints "I support the Saints" etc... Which I hope it would encourage and help attract a respectful crowd. The only reason it seems like the artists aren't saying or creating anything for lower town it is because you're not listening about our simple to accomplish visions of a modern urban neighborhood. thank you for reading lets do something NOW.

Lowertown residents have been put through years of constant dust, noise, rerouting, parking issues, etc. due to the construction in our neighborhood. I think it's ridiculous to further punish us by taking away one of our last remaining green spaces. Bad planning, City of St. Paul!

Jim (Ives, sorry, not Ivy!): It would be good to have a meeting with Dave Thune, Matthew Rucker and Andrew Remke (Black Dog) as they have been following the progress of this and we can piece together the reality and get up to speed. I keep hearing different things.

I like the pedestrian street idea, similar to the one outside Great Waters Brewery/Artists' Quarter. A weekend art market would be awesome.

Who can make arrange such a meeting? Sounds like it should be done quickly!

To Patrick's idea about taking over the street on a regular basis, the Dayton's Bluff Community Council is doing something similar on Thursday nights, where they block off Margaret St between 7th and Arcade, and have a neighborhood market. Here's a link to their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/MarketOnTheBluff.

They kicked off the first event in conjunction with the St. Paul Better Block project, which is something we should also try to do in Lowertown: http://teambetterblock.com/saintpaul/.

Melissa Martinez-Sones, the director for the downtown district council (http://www.capitolrivercouncil.org/) is meeting with the organizer for the Market on the Bluff next week, so hopefully they can share ideas and lessons learned about taking back streets to benefit the neighborhood (instead of cars just passing through).

As a Lowertown resident I am more than a little annoyed at the thought of an off ramp on Prince Street. Construction aside how will this help the neighborhood? That would absolutely ruin the flow to the businesses on that street, not to mention the loss of a park we all love and take care of. Recently Lowertown was voted the best neighborhood to live in the Twin Cities you route traffic through there and you loose all sense of a neighborhood as that is the main communal area.

Is this information still accurate?

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_23099946/st-paul-spend-3-38m-improve-prince-street

One more pragmatic suggestion: Talk to Public Works about setting the speed limit on that section of Prince to something obviously low (10-15 mph?), and include extra signage about pedestrian crossing, etc. Also should ask what other types of traffic calming measures were planned... Speed bumps?

Good news! I just talked to Jesse Farrell, St. Paul City Engineer involved with planning the Prince Street project.

I learned two things:

1) Construction will not start on the Prince Street project for at least a couple months (MNDot must still approve the plans).

2) The current Prince Street Project does NOT involve any connection with an exit off of 52. It may be part of a future plan years away, with plenty of time for all of us to examine and discuss plans with the City of St. Paul.

I will post a detailed written description of the current Prince Street project in the next few days.

Greetings! I finished a written description of the Prince Street project.

You can find the entire doc at https://www.dropbox.com/s/6d8pkuawo29bb65/Prince%20Street%20Project%20Description%20Final.pdf

The summary is that, in a long with Jesse Farrel in St. Paul Public Works on Monday, I learned:
1. There was no public meeting to which we were not invited.
2. A little history about the parking and garden behind the Northern.
3. The basic goals of the current Prince Street project.
4. Prince Street will not narrow.
5. A future Prince Street extension project could connect to the new exit off 52.

I even made a rough map of the current and potential future project.
Thanks to Jesse Farrell who helped me make this document and maps as accurate as possible.

LAST QUESTION: After you look at the document, would you please post your about what we should do with this Open issue in SeeClickFix?

Thanks, Serena. Is your understanding of this potential new connection that it would be an additional way to get traffic from NB 52 to lowertown, or would ALL the traffic going to 7th St. come through Prince St. first?

My understanding is there would be some sort of intersection offering vehicles the choice of going to 7th or to Prince — so an additional way to enter Lowertown. The map shows about where it would split. I'd hope for a stop sign, but I suspect that's not been planned yet. I also hope/suspect there would good signage that would direct most traffic to 7th.

I also understand that this option to go to Prince Street could be especially helpful for vehicles that don't need to go all the way to Broadway (deliveries to the new stadium perhaps, or to the back of the LRT turnaround building, or even Xcel performer's trucks and busses that park in the lots east of the Northern). It may also be an easy way for cars to access the parking lots to the south of Prince and Kellogg. None of that traffic would go as far as Broadway - a good thing.

I'm still concerned, though, and will want to be involved with the planning process. All Lowertown residents and businesses will want to be involved, I would think. Some people who have the inclination or energy may want to check with their city reps now about all that, to voice concerns, etc. Although my understanding is that those "plans" are merely at the conceptual stage.

Hope this helps!

I think it's possible to get a little flavor for what that NB exit ramp from 52 will feel like right now. I was up on a section of the new pedestrian/bike trail on the bridge a couple weeks back, and if nothing else it's a nice view. If anyone's interested, we could walk or take a short bike ride over there and take pictures and talk about it.

Serena, Thank you so much for the clarification of information and production of the document and map.
I certainly appreciate your willingness to compile that for yourself and others.

Jim - good idea. Jennifer, glad to do it.

Anybody want to leave this open? If I don't hear anything, I will close this issue. I hope everyone follows up on the current conceptual plans for linking Prince to the new 7th Street exit off of NB52 (See my previous two posts). Thanks!

There is a public meeting on Wed Aug 28th at 7 pm on the 6th floor of the Northern Warehouse. Concerned artists and businesses are encouraged to attend. What the plans do not address are the loss of parking on both sides of Prince St and a loss of 2 rows of parking from the large lots east of the Northern Warehouse. One of those rows is the only row of non-monthly parking in that lot. So where are farmers market customers and visitors to the Northern Warehouse businesses expected to park? Also, how will this impact access and parking during the St Paul Art Crawl which is coming up in a month and a half?

CORRECTION: I am Cynthia Uhrich--the President of the Board of Directors for the Northern Warehouse Artists' Cooperative. It appears a member has taken it upon herself to hand out flyers and tell the neighborhood about the meeting we have planned for Wednesday, August 28th. THIS MEETING IS NOT A HEARING, AND IT IS N O T PUBLIC. It is to address specific issues our membership had in relation to the upcoming construction. It is follow up with a city planner who visited with us last month. He is our invited guest--he is not making an address, or taking questions from the community-at-large--just questions from a handful of our members, who can be in attendance. This meeting is in response to a letter sent from the Board to Jesse Farrell, and in turn, the Traffic Division's response in writing to us. I did not authorize anybody to make copies and distribute that letter to other entities in the Lowertown neighborhood. I sincerely apologize for any confusion this individual has caused in the community.

The SeeClickFix.com system has once again asked me to close this issue. I've decided to leave it open because it is, in fact, an open issue. Hopefully it will remind some of us to keep our eyes and ears open for issues on the current and future Prince Street projects. Let me know if you disagree. Thanks!

Since there are no comments, I'll close this issue. Thanks everyone!