That is the last thing needed - another Kingston stop sign. Main Street has right of way and Wall St has a stop sign. That is the way most cities and towns work. One right of way, one stop. Exceptions are usually reserved for crossing rural highways where speeds of 40 mph or more are the norm. Kingston is a silly exception. Traffic stops in multiple directions with everyone looking stupidly at everyone else until someone decides to make a move.

BTW... A stop sign doesn't absolve traffic in both directions from looking and exercising a heavy dose of caution.

i go through there almost daily - and know to look. even with that, there are multiple times where you can't see someone coming, or they drive through too fast. also, if you are walking, it's a hazard to cross. there is a lot of pedestrian action there certian times due to the church and the post office and the farmer's market. there should be a stop sign.

Because of cars and/or trucks parked at the corner, it is difficult to see Main Street traffic while waiting on Wall street. Some sort of traffic control, while not an absoloution, would be helpful to those already looking. Nosing out into the intersection just to get a look is dangerous.

I disagree. The problem is lack of visual clarity- people park within 20 feet of the corner (usually right to the corner even blocking the cross walk) and then it is impossible to to see when you are driving through this intersection. A stop sign will just cause more problems especially since the road is very wide with a turn onto Wall Street.

There is a pretty simple solution to this problem.

Many towns with the same types of difficult traffic patterns for drivers and pedestrians, are using innovative, decorative, and functional techniques to improve safety at busy intersections such as this one.

On Main St. headed westbound, there should be a triangular-shaped traffic island, (perhaps with decorative bricks and landscaping) which would, in itself, force motorists continuing straight on Main St. to slow down.

Then, the drivers on Main St. who want to turn right onto Wall St. would have a yield sign, allowing traffic headed north on Wall St. to continue north after having come to a stop at the intersection.

I think the on-the-street-parking areas can also be properly re-evaluated and marked more clearly, in order to make visibility easier for motorists trying to negotiate this intersection.

I believe if the pavement markings were made clearer, as well as proper "zebra stripes" to demarcate the crosswalks, then pedestrians and drivers would have a clearer picture as to what to do when they reach this intersection.

Also, if a "Caution: Yield to Pedestrians in Crosswalk" sign were installed at the triangular traffic island, drivers on Main St. would have to slow down or stop to let people cross anyway.

I think a stop sign is completely appropriate. Traffic needs to slow down in general in the middle of town - and there is no issue with traffic backing up there.

There should also be "stop for pedestrians in crosswalk" signs - all over uptown. It is a state law that most motorists are unaware of. Everyone needs to stop as soon as a pedestrian steps off the curb in a crosswalk.

This item would need legislative action. A copy of this issue has been forwarded to Alderman Thomas Hoffay.

THEY PUT A STOP SIGN ON W.CHESTER ST. AT MARYS AVE. WHY CAN'T THEY DO IT HERE TOO. THERE IS MORE OBSTRUCTION TO A GOOD VISIBLITY HERE.

Never gonna happen. A stop sign was put at the corner of Wall & N. Front street and the complaints would not stop. Most drivers in Kingston are responsible, but you can thank the minority of irresponsible drivers (who should surrender their liscenses and get a bus pass) who messed that up. The same would happen here. Mark my words.

A stop sign is needed because that corner is a death trap... i can't believe it hasen't been fixed before now. What does it take a pile up of care and people getting hurt and dieing before a stop sing is put there. Let us protect the people who use that street corner. thank you for your time and consideration. Linda L.

This City does not need another stop sign. Keep cars from parking in front of St Joes to keep the sight lines open.

MY HUSBAND AND I WERE DRIVING ON WALL ST TRYING TO CROSS MAIN ST. THERE IS NO WAY TO SEE THE ON COMING CARS. PLEASE PUT A STOP SIGN UP ON MAIN STREET, IT IS POSITIVELY NEEDED BEFORE AN ACCIDENT KILLS SOMEONE.

Thanks!
Absolutely. Totally needed. For pedestrians too. And the road is curved at that point so the traffic going through or taking a right turn is going fast.
It is a different and unexpectedly uncontrolled intersection: coming up Main Street proceeds from a stop light, proceeds to an uncontrolled thru/right turn where a stop sign or a stop light will occur on the next intersection.
Be aware of the Complete Streets policy that was just proposed by work from Cornell Cooperative work and accepted by the Common Council... There will be a sitting committee in place in Kingston where these problems can be addressed.
http://www.kingston-ny.gov/content/120/2336/2344/default.aspx

There was a recent traffic study which could heavily influence this post. My understanding is that it suggested reversing the direction of Wall Street (and Fair St). I hope our noble Alderman Hoffay will respond to this issue and tell us what is in the works!!

Could you post a link to that study?
I heard tell of same but I found no record or plan.
Indeed, this town needs a simple walkthrough to fix a whole bunch of little problems that combine to make a mess. There is however the Complete Streets policy and committee and the Ulster County report of improvement to the 587/kingston corridor intersection: an excellent study and report up on the county web site.

Here's that link that Gerald suggested:
http://www.ulstercountyny.gov/planning/uctc/documents/stockade_final.pdf
And the appendices with the accident data
http://www.ulstercountyny.gov/planning/uctc/documents/stockade_appendices.pdf

These studies suggest the complete reveral of both Wall and Main, so they don't make any other suggestions. The reversal completely negates the need for a stop sign, but I still think a temporary stop sign until they implement the results of the study.

A STOP SIGN IS INDEED NEEDED UNTIL THE REVERSAL OF THE TRAFFIC IS IN EFFECT WHICH CAN TAKE FOREVER,.,,,,,,DONT' LET ANOTHER ACCIDENT HAPPEN JUST BECAUSE WE ARE WAITING FOR THAT CHANGE........

I don't understand why this is such an issue. It is obvious some sort of traffic control device is needed there. I live on Green St. and Main (one block over) and can't tell you how terrifying this intersection is. It's an easy, cheap, fix. Come on, Kingston, do it.

Main and Wall is a very unusual intersection, it is poorly designed for a business district, very very poor for pedestrians. The traffic coming up Main Street not only does not have a stop sign, the curb round is softened, so the traffic keeps up speed whether it is straight through or turning...
Moreover, the crosswalk for pedestrians is not broadly hatched.
I think this is where you can bring it up. I don't know who serves on that committee or where they report on their stuff.
Class: Public Safety/General Government/Audit
Start time: 7:00 PM
Location: City Hall Conf. Room 1
Occurs: This instance occurs on 3/24/2011.

Put in a stop sign

We need to rally on this issue. The farmer's market is opening this coming weekend. Let's make some progress. Get a stop sign here.

Any word about progress from the Public Safety Committee Meeting Mr Nice Guy?

No stop sign please. Kingston doesn't need more dizzy stop signs. Main Street passes the most traffic (sit there and count it for a few days at different times). Wall St should stop and Main go without stopping. If you want to improve visibility, ban and enforce no parking in front of the entrance of St Joseph's so that thraffic stopped On Wall Street can see the traffic on Main. A Stop sign on Main will not help that unless it is posted in the middle of the intersection! The best thing to do in that intersection is to designate and properly stripe the crosswalks. That automatically slows traffic down, benefiting both pedestrian traffic mentioned in earlier posts to this thread and vehicles.

Well marked, well hashed pedestrian crossings there? Absolutely! Boy, how nice would that be!
Still, a vote for a stop sign: traffic is far far too fast and unyielding for pedestrians in that heavily visited intersection. Drivers not only zoom up John across Wall but they turn onto Wall with abnormally high speed (see also Albany Ave at Maiden Ln) for what is mistakenly thought to be a right angle intersection... traffic going west on Wall has more of a "merge" experience than ever getting a right of way. But this is something, surely, for the Complete Streets committee... http://www.kingston-ny.gov/content/120/2336/2344/default.aspx
Improving the Pearl/Clinton intersection with a better sequence, would help. Traffic needs to flow more slowly but more smoothly, something the 587 Roundabout will serve. http://www.co.ulster.ny.us/planning/i587.html

@billC

You don't need to count it. There was a traffic study done and it is well documented (links are below). The flow down Main Street is not so heavy to deserve no stop sign. At 5PM (peak traffic time) aferage flow on Main is 350-400. On Wall before Main it is ~300. There should be stop signs in both directions since It is hard to see cars coming down Main from Wall, and it's a pedestrian area.

@vadhopper: you connected to Complete Streets committee?

@ kingstoncorridor

No, but I do support their goals!

@kingstoncorridor
No, but I support what they do!

YES!! Have almost hit cars and been hit by cars there. It makes NO SENSE not to have a stop sign on Main St. by Post Office. So much traffic. And people stopped on Wall St. ASSUME Main Street has Stop sign, so they stop and move ahead while people driving on Main Street zoom through! Very dangerous.

Another year - no stop sign. It is not a priority to the city. If you want this fixed - please comment - and call Tom Hoffay (Alderman for the ward). He's a good guy - and if he hears from enough people, he will fix the issue! At the moment, he does not think it is a priority. So let him know!

Please.. No more stop signs. Kingston is already a regional laughing stock as the home of S3 (stupid stop signs). Stripe the intersection properly and ban parking along the front of St Joseph's so better visibility is provided. Lastly, enforce complete stops on Wall St at he intersection. Stop signs in Kingston are so omnipresent and silly (e.g. On the through streets at 'T' intersections) that drivers tend to minimize compliance.

The city is well aware of these issues and it's been going on forever. Pedestrians are constantly dodging traffic on that corner and cars are doing that hesitation and bolt thing too, with near misses. Next accident should present the city with a whopping lawsuit to get their attention. It's a ridiculously simple fix.....
And honestly, there should be stop signs at every single intersection on Wall St, all the way down to the end. Cars fly through there as an alternative to Washington Ave. It's a real drag for the residents.

Why don't they do what other communities do? Put up a big yellow "Yield to Pedestrians Inside Cross Walk" cone-thing in the middle of the street where people are crossing? That way it reenforces to hapless drivers that they need to freakin' pay attention!!!

Here is an example of what other communities have installed at heavily-traveled pedestrian lanes.

The problem here isn't pedestrian traffic. It's the fact that cars come down Main Street uncontrolled to turn right or go straight through on Main, often well over the posted speed limit. Westbound cars on Wall can not see them at all if cars are parked in front of the Catholic Church (Saint Joe's?), a condition that happens quite often. A stop sign is about the best, most cost-effective soloution.

Andrew Champ-Doran

I'm a fan of both a stop sign AND the pedestrian crosswalk signs - and extra broad hatched crosswalk. The crosswalk signs are needed all over uptown. How often I am trying to cross Front Street - and sit there standing in the corss walk waiting for cars to pass. ALL CARS MUST STOP FOR PEDESTRIANS IN THE CROSSWALK - NY State Law.

But here at Main and Wall - a stop sign is needed as well. As Andrew points out, traffic moves far to fast. Recently the light was replaced at Green and Main - and I am very happy about that. Traffic has slowed considerably in front of my house on Green - a residential street with lots of kids.

And to those of you who think there are too many stop signs in Kingston - I can't understand that. This is a pedestrian friendly city. You need to stop at intersections and yield to pedestrians. We do not need to allow cars to drive faster through the center of the city. If that's what you want - there are plenty of places in California that can accomodate your need for speed. Let us have our pedestrian friendly city.

Well, another year, no stop sign. I want to keep this issue alive. I don't know what happened with the proposals to reverse the directions of the streets - seems to have died. There is a simple solution:

Put a stop sign on Main at Wall St and put pedestrian crossing signs on the key crosswalks in uptown.

Please vote to fix this!

Another year, no stop sign. On-going complaints of accidents and near accidents.

Please continue to support this!

Our Alderman there is now Brian Seche. He's a fair and conscientious legislator. Here is his contact information: Second Ward, Brian Seche, (845) 335-5971, 147 North Manor.

Majority Leader Matt Dunn was working on a plan to change traffic patterns up town, and they've since gotten rid of the light at Fair and Main, though I haven't noticed any improvement in our situation there.

As I ran for Alderman last year, I heard a lot of people echo the sentiments of Bill C. above, "That is the last thing needed - another Kingston stop sign" One guy suggested we remove one stop sign for every one we add. Well, then here's my pitch: If you give us the sign, get rid of the Westbound sign on Main at Green, less than a block down. I'll even throw in the stop North on Josephine at Donovan Place as a bonus, if we can get a decent crosswalk painted in. Sound fair? Enforcing parking regulations in front of the church wouldn't hurt, either, even with exemptions for Masses and Funerals.

As DPW said above, all of this has to get legislative action. Send requests to Alderman at Large James Noble (39 Roosevelt Avenue 845-331-4696). He can send it to the proper committee, probably starting with Bill Carey's General Government/Public Safety Committee.

-Andrew Champ-Doran

Yes, I am good friends with Tom and Matt. Brian is aware of my concern. I want to encourage others to do the same. I wish I had the time to push this more...

There is no reason for a stop sign in that location in my opinion. There are too many in the city as it is. PLEASE DO NOT PUT ONE THERE. I am sure if anyone consults with a traffic engineer they will agree. NO SIGN.

wondering if you live anywhere near wall street. the stop signs ARE needed. people go blasting through the residential areas of uptown as it is, it's a blessing the stop signs that do exist break things up and slow them down.
the view of that corner of main street and wall is often blocked by cars parked in front of the church - both for funerals and also illegally. you cannot see cars coming from main. i have seen pedestrians, who were trying to cross, people from the farmer's market and women with strollers trying to scoot across main and wall because there is no stop sign and someone is barreling down the road.

Schupp99 - I have consulted with traffic engineers and reviewed the traffic studies. The only reason a sign was not officially recommended was because of the intention to reverse the direction of Wall and Fair Street - a process which has stalled. Read all the accounts above! There are many people who see a critical need for a stop sign. The only people who do not want one are people who only drive down Main Street. Pedestrians and motorists that drive down Wall St DO want one.

PLEASE PUT A STOP SIGN THERE!!

Well the new council is going to take their seats shortly, so I thought I would just bring this issue up again and have them readdress it.

PUT A STOP SIGN on Main St at Wall!

Also, put pedestrian right of way signs in the middle of all crosswalks in Uptown.

We are going on five years of this discussion now, waiting for a stop sign. Rather pathetic. Does anyone from the city even bother to read this?
Or how about ticketing the illegally parked cars in front of the church that are blocking visability during times where there isn't a funeral? Is there some sort of special privilege that the church has or something? Why isn't that happening? If those cars weren't there, at least you could see who was speeding towards you when you are trying to cross at Wall St....while we wait for someone to give us a stop sign.....

gone

Unless you are in city government, your opinion is not a final decision

Please stop trying to close active issues schupp99. I will seek to have your account restricted (to prevent you closing issues) if you do that again. I regularly monitor this site and close issues that have been addressed or are irrelevant and not being discussed. You have now closed multiple issues that were actively being discussed - one of which (at North Front and Fair) was finally fixed with all way stop signs. This forum DOES work. We need to keep at it for issues which involve complications. You are welcome to express your opinion (and I would not try to get you barred), but do not close issues unless everyone agrees.

BTW if what some have suggested is true, that a stop sign hasn't been installed because there was some plan in the works to reverse the directions of Wall and Fair Street, that's a poor excuse. I say so what!? What does it cost to put up a stop sign in the meantime? So how many years has that plan been proposed and not implemented anyway?
Yes there are a lot of stop signs in Kingston. There are a lot of stop signs in most cities/towns because those areas are highly developed/congested with crosswalks, pedestrians/traffic/parked cars. We are not out on country road here folks. Wherever there is any stretch in Kingston without a stop sign, idiots tear through at excessive speeds. Their need for speed getting around town doesn't trump the right to safety for drivers and pedestrians.

I live right by that intersection and I hear beeping/near-accidents at least once a day, usually more! I drive on Main daily and have almost been hit several times by the car traveling on Wall (even though I know to slow down and lookout). Also, as I know other posters have mentioned, if you are on Wall Street at the stop sign, you cannot see cars driving on Main because people continue to park ILLEGALLY in front of St. Joseph's Church...this happens a lot on the weekends. Also, people drive super fast down Main Street. Not once have I seen a person get a speeding ticket, but I've seen several people almost get hit. This should be addressed!

Jac,
For anything to happen, you will need to get the 2nd Ward Alderman to go for the plan. I understand Doug Koop is very responsive to his constituents' needs. Here's his contact info:
Douglas Koop
(845) 706-5053
149 Main Street
ward4@kingston-ny.gov
Best of luck,
Andrew Champ-Doran

Doug is supportive of the idea. I encourage people to talk to him about it. A stop sign would really help!