This issue was opened

So the old Solari sign is hard to fix? Take the $5 million it was going to cost to put in LED signs and bank it. Use it as a fund to restore the Solari sign as needed!

LED signs in the tunnel and on the platforms? GREAT! But if the Solari sign gets replaced, the charm and that little bit of old-school mechanical magic of Union Station will diminish ten-fold.

I agree! Let's save the old sign and use the money for something else.

I think the fact that a mechanical sign is revered as a masterpiece of design at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City is proof enough that our own mechanical sign is worth saving.

PLEASE DON'T TAKE THE MECHANICAL SIGN AWAY.

It's just like with musical instruments. People would pay a lot of money to have one of the old ones. They just don't make things like they used to.

Save the Solari sign. You can't have ads on a Solari.

Definitely Save the sign.

That thing is awesome and will only become more valued as we barrel into our digital future.

The new sign isn't going to cost $5 million, that's the total cost of improvements, but I agree there should be a creative way to keep this thing going!

i completely agree! it is my favorite part of union station!!!!!

i hate that high-tech modern updates often replace the originals that a) aren't even broken yet and b) are way more interesting, stylish and add to a sense of place.

I would like to see the Solari sign retained as well. If they still want the LCDs, they could be in addition to the Solari unit. Please keep the sign.

Just so everyone knows, I'm almost certainly sure that this board is not some sort of crazy antique. At most, it is likely 24 years old. Metro North did not start operation until 1983, and the station did not reopen until 1985, so this board likely dates from then.

SECONDLY, I'm in contact with a representative from Solari. They still manufacture and maintain manual flip-style boards and in fact currently maintain 2 boards in New Jersey that are 25 years old, so it looks like the CT DOT really has no idea what they are talking about.

Bottom line is that we can almost certainly prevent the flip board from going away.

They are currently manufactured, so they could purchase a new board, AND the company still offers maintenance and parts for them, so the DOT cannot claim that keeping the board would be an undue burden to the taxpayers.

More info as I get it, but let's get motivating and save our board.

pedro, why didn't you run for mayor? nice work.

let's do this, champs!!!!

:D thanks juli :)

OK, here is what I got from Solari:

"We are still manufacturing and support our mechanical split-flap displays. In fact we maintain several signs for New Jersey Transit that are over 25 years old and we just installed 2 new split-flap boards in Trenton."

I also spoke with a company representative, and he told me that another benefit of these boards is the "green factor." They draw SIGNIFICANTLY less electricity than a constantly lit LED display.

I know that the CT DOT gets these SCF emails. CT DOT, would you care to respond or at least forward this along? As you can see, this is actually a pretty passionate issue here for our little train station and would love to have the opportunity for you to hear our concerns. I'm personally ecstatic that the station is undergoing a $5 million renovation, so kudos to you all for that.

One of the biggest treats of waiting for the train at Union Station is watching the sign flip, and hearing it change.
PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE!

Join the Facebook group to save the sign.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=197307337407

I will be heartbroken if this sign goes away and cannot imagine why anyone thinks it'd be an improvement to switch to LED...

Anyone want to meet at the station and give out small flyers to commuters, to make them aware of the situation?

We could do the "text to vote" thing and votes would be added right to SeeClickFix... or ask people to call someone and voice their concern. Who would be the best person to call?

Seems like a no-brainer. Save $5 million, keep the sign out of the landfill and the best part is, no one has to do anything.

Save the sign!

Someone should click the print flier button above or make their own flier to post at the station to tell people to text their vote for issue 10494 to 414111.

I have added Kevin Nursick as a Follower so the State hears the cries of mechanical sign lovers :-)

Sorry in advance Kevin.

If you want the sign saved, please email Kevin.Nursick@po.state.ct.us or just click above on "Send to a Friend" and send this to Kevin - DOT's public relations guy.

Yes, save that board! It works, it has character, it fits with the building, and people like it! The DOT seems so often to care only about "improvement" or "efficiency" or whatever, whether it's about highway construction, or railroad station renewal, or anything else, which is fine, but they do NOT seem to consider how real people live in neighborhoods or communities, or with what they care about. PLEASE, DOT, reconsider.

And excellent work, Pedro. Keep it up! I often read your comments in the New Haven Independent, and can tell that you are a boon to New Haven (and a fellow Amherst graduate). :)

Less electricity required. No ability to post ads. Ain't broke, don't fix it. Mr. Nursick, please get on this one.

Save the Solari

Me too.

If not fixable, at least add the clickety-clack as a sound effect

The frustrating thing for me in all of this is the DOT's off-base assertion that the Solari signs are some sort of rare, ancient oddity, that parts are no longer available and that subsequently they are difficult to maintain.

A FIVE MINUTE google search and phone call on my part gave me the information that not only does the manufacturer still service these signs, they still make them!

For a variety of reasons, we here in New Haven love our mechanical sign. We're not being curmudgeons or obstructionists. We think that it enhances the experience of using Union Station, and that an LED sign would detract.

I sincerely hope that the DOT is not going to simply stick their collective fingers in their ears and ignore the plain-as-day fact that this sign is not obsolete, and that commuters don't want it to go anywhere.

children put down their video games, adults look up from their cell phones, and all learn the lost art of PATIENCE as the sign reveals itself in it's own time. People who had been running, or stressed, can take a moment to sip coffee or water, because as long as the sign is changing, the trains haven't left.

This sign should NOT be taken from the public; perhaps a donation box placed at it's base for maintenance and upkeep would allow travelers and members of the public to donate money; a ticket price increase would anger far more people than who want the sign to remain, and I don't think that's the solution.

Mechanical ANYTHING is going the way of the dodo- but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing. Watches, CARS, clocks, signs, switches, even computers once operated mainly by mechanical switches and movement. What we're losing here is a feeling of reliability, history, appreciation for US ingenuity, and a sense of permanence in a time of fleeting interactions. People are passionate about this sign because it's an old friend; they've developed a relationship with the mechanical wonder and mystery. "why hasn't it evolved?" BECAUSE IT STILL WORKS!

The voting machine analogy is spot-on! There's nothing to "hack" or "sabotage" with a mechanical sign! The auditory cue that lets people know the sign is changing is really wonderful, and I think if it changes to LED, that will be the part most people miss.

• Move
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Youtube video of the sign from the NHI

Mark -

I can meet on Sunday if there is a good time to pass out flyers. Or right after SantaCon - we can walk down in our costumes, take a group, and hand out flyers with a little ho-ho-ho action.

Ben, the flyer has too much verbage and overlaps - any way to change the font size of the text of the issue? or is there a way i can do that myself?

http://jamieexplainsitall.com/?p=197

It is a wonderful relic back to a simpler time. New Haven was once a bastion of travel and commerce, and this sign hearkens back to that time. It would be a true shame if this sign were replaced with some modern LED display that lacks culture, history and the "wow, that's cool" factor

Here's a link to a PDF I put together that you can go pass out or post around town/Union Station:

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0Bzw6RLBkLgdeYzIzZGU2NDAtMDRjNy00ZWQ1LTgyOTYtY2QwMTFkZjJlZTY0&hl=en

Hey folks, just a quick change needs to be made on those flyers before they go out!

The new sign is NOT going cost $5 Million!!

The $5 Million is what CTDOT is going to spend on renovating Union Station entirely, including 400 new speakers, water leakage issues, new small LED and LCD signs at strategic locations, and and other much needed work.

New the sign comprises only a portion of that. I don't want to hand out incorrect facts in this issue which will only hurt our cause!

Perhaps the "greenness" of the displays could also be included.

...sorry I clicked submit too quickly.

The $5 Million renovation is not a total makeover, but still will comprise much needed work. I'm ecstatic that Union Station is getting all of this work done, but hopefully they'll see that we love that sign, and that it can be refurbished instead of replaced and actually save the state money in the long haul.

Please don't take away the clackety sign! It's my favorite part of the train station!

The sign works, gives a great audio cue and is charming. What value are you adding by replacing it? Please keep the current sign for as long as possible and think about solving a real problem.

I remember that sound very vividly from childhood! The clacking noise brings excitement and energy to the station. Have you been to Union Station in Chicago lately? That place still advertises "Color TV" in its deli....Let me say that as big a metropolis as Chicago is, it amazingly doesn't possess the same bustle as homely New Haven's train station, and the clackety clack of the sign is a part of the attraction.

I agree 100% with those who have commented that as time goes on, the value of this sign will only increase. Please, DOT, Metro-North, all others involved, do only this thought experiment: What if Grand Central in NYC had replaced its famous Seth Thomas (from Waterbury, CT) clock with something digital? Think of all the charming things people visit when vacationing overseas...aren't most of them just the by-gone products and aged technology of earlier eras?

I believe many of these postings are by younger people, many perhaps born after this sign was put up. We appreciate, despite our tech savviness (witness this website) in ways those older persons in charge might not precisely because we can recognize is specialness--because it is not familiar technology and provides charm and cache to the station in the same way the marble floors might----THis is why the station was preserved in the first place! Why spend all this money to heat an old marble building? If you replace this sign with an LED you might as well tear the thing down and put up a glass box with concrete floors; there would not be any point in preserving anything.

Rip down the clock towers and the ivy clad walls of Yale, but for goodness sake keep the flipping sign! Its earned its place!

Also! Good informed and passionate people of this chat board...Google search Preservation 911 and file comments! Spread the word!

I'm positive this building must be on the National Register of Historic Places! So, E-mail, mail, bombard, and harass the slowpokes at the Connecticut Trust for Historic Preservation! Remind them of their duty to help preserve and protect these types of details! They rarely do anything other than protect some little seen covered bridge in some sleepy hamlet or worry about the windows on some 18th century farmhouse in Canton or something. But CT's urban treasures deserve far greater attention than they currently receive. (Does the state even have a SHPO anymore?!)

There are millions of trains and train station enthusiasts out there who can be rallied to this cause; there are passionate people looking out for NYC subway tiles, there must be knowledgeable people attached to the NYCs metro-rail system who could be of service.

This is a classic case of something that truly isn't outmoded, that is tasteful, threatened by something crass, obtrusive, and worst of all: unnecessary. Some unthoughtful bureaucrat made a snap decision somewhere and now is going to fight like the dickens over what should be nothing, but don't back down.

Save the sign!! It's tradition!

I understand there have been good arguments made on both sides here. However, I'll be seriously pissed off if the nostalgic weepings of a few trump my tax dollars on this issue. I'll be sad to see the old sign go, too, but this is basically on the taxpayer's dime and there is simply zero argument for maintaining the old sign if it costs more.

Eddie, that's the whole problem. The DOT said that the sign was obsolete and that they couldn't find parts for it.

I called the company that makes them and they told me that not only do they still make parts for it, they still make this very sign and they just installed 2 new ones for NJ Transit this past January.

I believe that the whole line of "expensive to maintain" is false and based on the fact that CT DOT did not bother contact the manufacturer, and assumed they had an antique on their hands.

I think several people have already explained that the thing is fixable and is energy efficient in the long run---especially since we're planning on the train staying there for the long run and its already made it 24 years with little cost.

But as far as "nostalgic weepings", what's wrong with keeping your city looking beautiful and interesting instead of like the Meadowlands of New Jersey or Gary, Indiana? Isn't civic pride worth any tax money at all? Do fiscal tightfists really believe in never doing anything to spruce things up? What would their dream city look like, a perfectly paved parking lot without any trees and all modern clean cement structures? Ikea maybe?

A business person pays close attention to his personal appearance in a job interview, why do sometimes the same fiscally minded people not see the simple, overall benefit in keeping a city looking spiffy as well in terms of economic development? Besides, small things like not screwing up important signs about town is at least a cheap way of keeping a city looking vital (even if it totally isn't), equivalent of just paying someone to pick up litter, especially when compared to bigger fiscal issues to complain about like tax breaks and subsidies... I'm thinking of Pfizer here.

If the logic of tax savings as the rationale to swap out the Solari sign with LED screens is taken to the next step, then the station must be closed and the trains halted and sold for scrap. The intercity rail system in the U.S. exists only because its subsidized with public money. All we're asking is that the state consider, as Updike once wrote, that buildings have a function beyond the baldly utilitarian. This is not some wheezy nostalgia play as the state insists in supporting its attempt to make a train station as soul-denting as airports; it's about how design relates to the experience as presented by the function of a place.

Thank you Pedro for posting this issue.

The community has spoken unequivocally in favor of keeping the Solari sign. As ANON posted on the N.H.I. article, there are plenty of machinists in New Haven who would love to mill some custom parts for a railroad station. Why not spend money on people with skills rather than buying new electronic garbage and creating more waste?

Hell, I can run a mill and a lathe and I'd gladly donate some time to make custom parts for that sign. It would be a pleasure!

I think we need to remind the folks at ConnDOT who they work for.

save it, fix it, do whatever you gotta do, but don't take it away!!!!!

It would be a shame to loose the sign

I agree --save the sign

I beg you in song:

Solari, oh oh
E contare, oh oh oh oh
No wonder my happy heart sings
Your clickity-clack has given me wings

Great song, train traveler dean Martin. Sing it again.

Harlem's Apollo Theater replaced its marque with a L.E.D. system, but was mandated by the NYC Landmarks Commission to maintain the format of the original signage, that of black letters silhouetted against a lighted white background. I don't know what Union Station is planning, but their new L.E.D. system could still reflect the Solari Board's graphic format.

An image of the Apollo's historic marque signage circa 1940s for comparison..

Hey John,

That's really cool. Maybe they should make the LED's spin :-)

While additional signage with more details would be nice, I ask that the state not remove the historic and comforting Solari Sign that now graces New Haven's Union Station. This very visible sign has a warm personality that helps the traveler before he descends into the cold, mirrored, art-deco tunnel to board train. When you sit in the waiting room, it's periodic clatter is both a diversion and a reminder that time is passing. It also serves as a kind of alarm to rouse the daydreamer so he doesn't miss his train. This is New England, an area where history is valued and tradition savored. People spend large sums to incorporate artifacts of the past into their current homes and lives. The Solari Board is more than an artifact: its a vibrant, healthy, useful reminder of the glory days of train travel.

Another person wants this fixed!

Hey there Solarians (sorry, couldn't resist). Just writing to check in. I have not yet heard from the DOT on this matter in any way, nor have they posted a response on SCF (even though they are getting every one of these messages), so the next step is to make direct contact. I'll try contacting the DOT tomorrow or wednesday as I have the time. Any of you are also free to reach out and contact them as well. PLEASE make sure to stress the fact that these signs are currently being used in New Jersey, and that Solari has said that they could offer a maintanance contract on this sign.

I saw an NBC30 news piece on the sign, and they even showed that this sign is OPERATED BY A COMPUTER.
It dates from 1984.

This sign can even be upgraded or replaced with another Solari sign. It does NOT have to be LED.

I'm open to ideas as to how to demonstrate critical mass by probably the most important constituency, and that is daily commuters and train riders.

It might be difficult to put some sort of display in the station, but I think that we need to try to demonstrate that this is not just some fringe group of people trying to save an obsolete technology, but are making a clear choice as to the type of public environment they would like to use daily.

Think about it. The only reason that there are newspaper articles, TV reports and organized groups dedicated to this is that a great many people really, really like that sign. When was the last time that a SIGN CHANGE was reported on the evening news?

We need to speak with a steady and loud voice that we do not want that sign to go away, and that we speak for a great many people who live in New Haven, and who use and love Union Station, one of the last remaining great public spaces in the city.

I understand wanting to keep the sign, I think the DOT's offer to display it in Union Station should be accepted. (Not that we have or should have weight in this decision.) Have any of you commuted to the City via Cattle North on a regular basis? I have and it was a horrific experience. The click clack is not charming when you are standing under the sign at 6:30 AM to learn the train's track number. The sign is only one of many overdue improvements. Someone commented the LED sign is not ADA compliant, the DOT stated otherwise and is clearly well versed in ADA regulations.

I disagree, Kathleen. Speaking as a regular commuter, removing the sign is simply not acceptable.

In response to Kathleen's comment....I disagree strongly. We SHOULD have weight in this decision. And I am a regular on Metro North. And yes, I do want to keep that sign.

DOT Floats a Compromise: http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/12/dot_suggests_so.php

FAIL!

this sign should stay where it is. add LED signs elsewhere, in addition, if DOT is determined to have them. how is the Solari sign not ADA compliant?

The clicky train arrivals/departures board is wonderful in such a beautiful historic public space. It helps train travel sound and feel and look like train travel. SAVE THE CLICKY THING !!!

The Solari split-flap display board is one of the pleasant amenities of New Haven Union Station. The filthy, stinking, worn out dump, known as the "Mens Room", is not. It's a disgrace. I'd much prefer to see the funds intended for replacing the Solari display board directed towards the complete replacement of the public bathroom facilities.

I have spit-flap wall clocks mounted in two locations in my home, and they have been operating trouble-free, continuously, for a good ten years. If the CT DOT is having so much trouble and expense maintaining the Solari board at Union Station, I would suggest that it is more due to the personnel they have engaged to maintain it, than the underlying technology of the board, which, BTW, Solari has been producing for some forty years.

I agree. Save it. I visited there for the first time and love the old charm of the pl;ace - the tunnels are amazing design. Keep it all just the way it is please.

Hi Angi,

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Team@seeclickfix.com

Thanks,

Ben

I recently visited New Haven back in August and took Metro North into New York with my best friend. I come from down south (Texas) and had never had the pleasure of ever stepping foot into a train station. From the emotion and tenacity that is placed into the posts, you can surmise the amount of pleasure and awe that I received upon entrance. We sat for about 45 minutes, sipped our water, chatted and patiently waited for the sign to change, waiting for our track to be assigned.

This was by far one of the greatest things I have ever experienced. Although right now I am not a resident of your great state, I have to say that I am behind all of you in keeping it just the way it is. It adds that special feel to the environment.

“We understand that the current board has a sentimental value to some, but sentimental value cannot preclude making prudent, reasonable and very necessary changes to the station,” Nursick said.

I suppose the station itself has "sentimental value to some" also? This guy does not have a clue! Union Station was restored to its historic state for a reason -- people want a connection to a bygone era. They want train travel to be different from air travel. This "sentimental value" statement really scares me.

Can someone kindly remind the bureaucrats at ConnDOT who pays their salaries?

We the taxpayers, we the train-riding and train-loving public, we the people who want some say in how our most treasured public spaces look, feel, and function. The bureaucrats are so eager to answer to disembodied regulations and other bureaucrats, that they forget ro listen to the will of their 3.4 million bosses in this state.

I've looked into this issue a bit more. Apparently the LED board proposed for New Haven would be built to the same specifications as the boards at Grand Central (photo - I hope!). This is not as bad as I feared since it replicates the appearance of a manual board, compared with some other LED boards that are various colors and very garish. The LED boards are also made by Solari.

I'm still concerned that the people who characterize historic preservation as "sentimentality" are in charge of this decision. We need some people who care about historic buildings and railroads to be in on this.

If it is very similar to the one at Grand Central Terminal (And Penn Stations got it going, too), then I am all for the replacement of the board. Just as long as the solari is preserved and put on display somewhere in the station.

That sign is a classic. I love everything about it. I'm another person that wants it fixed.

Keep the sign.

I would bet that there is payola involved, with someone making the decision getting a "payback" from the LED sign people.

Union Station in New Haven is a wonderful piece of American history. Let's not tamper with this wonderful sign.

If an LED sign needs to be added, then go ahead and add it elsewhere in the station. But make sure there is no payola first!!!

The old sign is sustainable, only 24 yrs old and energy efficient compared to the proposed LED board that will probably spam us with commericials while we wait for the train. I hate the fact the we are moving into an age where there are commerials everywhere we go, LED billboards, ticker tape LED's at the DMV, LED commerials at pofessional sports arenas aye-carumba! Spare me!

an employee at the information desk at union station claimed that amtrak is behind the effort to install a new sign, not conndot like the article said. ?

Update! http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/12/two_years_two_v.php

If you people want to be true to the "historic nature" of Union Station, then bring back the chalk board announcements and get rid of that darn new fangled, clickity clacking, flip flopping gadget they installed just twenty five years ago!

If the inside of the station is historically important than the issue should not be in question. Is it that
big a deal? Leave it alone!

Save Our Solari!

Somebody named “Anon” posted a great idea on the Independent. Just add a thin variable LED sign beneath the existing sign for urgent updates. Save $55,000 and an exemplary piece of modern design.

Save the clicky sign!! We can't distroy all mechanical things and have them replaced by boring electronic devices. It has so much character and is probably the only one left in CT.

Yes, please do save this sign. Refelcts on character and positive space of the station.

We made national news! Unfortunately they think the sign is doomed.

From NPR Weekend Edition Sunday:
Train Station Board’s Demise Is Sign Of The Times
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122190224&sc=emaf

As I have said before and will say again, this is not simply a matter of nostalgia; it is a matter of maintaining good design as a part of our everyday lives.

what are our next steps then, everybody? write letters? make calls? get together to make a game plan?
i really do not want to see this sign go.

I emailed the MoMA Architecture+Design Circle to ask them to write a letter to ConnDOT on our behalf. They donated a Solari sign to MoMA in 1996. If anyone would recognize the value of keeping good design a part of everyday life, they would.

AN IDEA:
I saw a Solari displayed at Moma a few years ago, in a design show. Why not reinstall our Solari sign elsewhere in the station, having the letters stopped to spell out an explanation of what people are looking at, i.e., a description of the sign/designer/history. (I did ask the museum in NY if they wanted it, and they declined, saying that their one Soalri was enough...)

Does anyone happen to know how much it would cost to buy a new (larger) Solari split-flap display board to accommodate expanded rail service?

I also agree that we should save the sign! It adds a wonderful ambience to the station. What's the point of a historical restoration if we do stupid things like this?

I really like how, with the clicky spinning, you can see everything change, rather than just having one number disappear and another pop up in its place. The mechanical functionality of it is reassuring. It's almost as if seeing the sign operate as it's supposed to makes it easier to imagine that the trains, the station, and everything else in the world must be in working order too.

So, who's in charge of this and what are we doing to keep the sign?

Another person wants to keep the Solari sign...
the state of CT is cutting daycare, preschool, and elderly facilities; and the DOT wants to spend HOW MUCH to replace a sign that does not need replacing?
How about replacing the garbage cans in the Men's room?

Can someone from New Haven City Hall or ConnDOT post and confirm that the sign is going to stay?

That sign is flipping awesome!

Save the sign!

Resident - I'm sorry, but nobody from City Hall or the DOT can confirm that it is going to stay, because right now - it's not. It can, most likely, be confirmed that the sign will be preserved and shown on display either at the museum or, if space can be found, at a visible location in the station. But, unfortunately - right now, the sign will be leaving.

And as far as I'm concerned, the new signs will be LDS. I'm going to try contacting CTDOT, I'll see if they've considered an LCD sign. An LCD sign (which is what GCT has, Penn station, and people can't even tell the difference between LCD and Solari besides the flipping) according to people I've asked would be an acceptable replacement for the solari, and is much more preferred than the LCD board.

Thank you for the update Pioneer. Hope they go with the LCD sign and find a place for Clicky.

I take the metro north every day. wether it is a flip type or an lcd it is going to say the same thing!!!! why waste extra money to keep theold one in place? to be cute? it is ridiculous to spend money on it. think of what the money can be used for:
paying the 30 people who work at the staion to stand around and not work or ever put salt on what
seems to be a frozen pond outside the station

Pioneer -- Yes, the LCD type boards at Grand Central would be acceptable to me. They definately fit in much better with a historic building than LED type boards. In fact, DOT originally said the boards were to be made to the same speciciations as Grand Central, but it doesn't seem that way now. If you can somehow get them to change back to LCD, I think that would go a long way towards keeping the beautiful historic character of Union Station intact.

Closing issue because it sounds like DOT has already made up their mind about this (without asking the community first), and that nothing will be done going forward except the clicky sign being taken down.